It seems like Rodney Dangerfield's line "I can't get no respect" pertains to arranger keyboards too.

Just got back from visiting a national chain music store in my area, inquiring about arranger keyboards and the sales guys (week end warrior type musicians) gave me a weird look like "why would a 'real' musician be interested in playing an arranger keyboard". There seems to be a strong (unjustly so) mis-conception amongst some pro musicians (especially here in the US), that arranger keyboards are simply back up accompaniment machines (similar to karaoke) designed for people with no real musical talent or taste. Only after sitting down and playing them a few tunes in full keyboard mode were they finally convinced that the arranger keyboard can truly sound very professional.

Could it be that these guys feel threatened by ever improving arranger keyboard technology and fear they will be replaced by us? Of course I would prefer to play with other 'live' musicians, but the fact of the matter is, you make more $ as a solo 'one man band' act.

As an arranger keyboard musician, "you" are both the band leader (conductor) and all the performing members of the band as well. The arranger keyboard offers 'new' creative challenges for the 'live' performing keyboard musician. This includes knowing when to trigger drum fills (at just the right moment) for added spontaneous realism; incorporating a variety of arranger playing styles/modes and implementing vocalizer backup for added variety/spice, and perfecting playing techniques specifically unique to arranger keyboards (style, orchestration, chord voicings,on bass lines, panel memory, etc). To achieve the highest level of professionalisn, arranger keyboard performance requires not only musicianship skills but many other specialized skills specifically unique to arranger keyboards as well.

I play the Technics KN5000 with hard drive and have scores of songs stored which contain customized song specific styles (organized by genre). I also store a bank of styles which cover a wide genre of song styles for those 'audience request tunes'. This makes for quick access (almost instantly) to just about any song style or specific customized song as needed, because for live perfomance, you don't want 'big gaps' between songs which might bring down the house energy level). I also use a 4 pedal foot controller unit + a single pedal foot controller. These are used for triggering drum fills, style & sound changes, and other parameters. To stabilize and keep the pedals in a "consistent spot" beneath the keyboard, I built a lightweight wooden pedal holder (out of plywood) which is secured between the keyboard stands' legs (simple Quicklock X stand). This way I can be always confident that I'm hitting the correct foot pedal without having to look down.

Interested in hearing from others of you re: your indiviual arranger playing style, techniques, tips, opinions, etc.

Make music and be happy,



Scott

San Francisco Bay Area (California), USA

I'm answering from Germany. As a matter of fact the arrangers have become the most normal things for musicians performing in the field of entertainment/ dance music. Only the more "conceited" high-browed studio musicians don't want to admit that they also sometimes use arrangers. A friend of mine owns a studio and produces jingles for local adverisements. Whenever he is short of time or ideas he goes for the good old X1.
But coming back to the main point. I started playing dance music back in 1982. At first we were three in the band. Keyboard, guitar and drums. Me, on the keyboard, playing the bass lines with my left hand. Then since 1986 we started to perform as a duo, consisting of keyboard/ guitar. The first keyboard I used for this was a Yamaha PS 6000 with a Korg Poly 61, a Korg DW 8000 and a DX 21. Next was a Solton TS 4, a accompaniment-machine with only three octaves just for playing accompaniment patterns. I used this together with a DX7 and a Korg T3. When the sound of the arranger keyboards became much better I sold my sythies and went for two arrangers. Nowadays I am playing the Solton MS 100, predecessor of the X1 and the Roland G1000.
Definitely more than 90 percent of the musicians who play dance music at parties are nowadays using arrangers nowadays. We for example sometimes play gigs with four musicians without a drummer. We have keyboard, guitar, western-guitar/ trombone and trumpet/percussion in this case. It's sad but most of the hotels don't even have the space for a large band with a drumkit anymore.
Best wishes from Germany
Markus

PS.: I've heard rumours about a new keyboard from Solton which is to be presented at the Frankfurt Music Fair next year in March. As soon as I get to know more I'll post a note about it.

Hi Markus,

Fasinating to read your how your band has evolved with the advent of your arranger keyboard. Sounds like you have played some great classic synths over the years. My first synth was a Korg T3; then traded that for a Fatar 1176 keyboard controller with Korg X5DR, Yamaha MU80, and General Music Piano Expander modules. My first arranger unit was a Roland RA800 (table top module version of the G800) connected to the Fatar. I soon got tired of lugging all this equipment to/from gigs when a couple of years ago I discovered the Technics KN5000 arranger keyboard which I have been performing with exclusively ever since.

The beauty of the arranger keyboard is the flexibility it provides (adding/eliminating) live musicians as clients budgets and/or room size allows. It is indeed sad (but also a fact we have to live with) that music has become just a financial commodity' to hotel and club managers to maximize profits. The hotels find it more profitable to add a couple more tables for patrons and eliminate the drummer.

I am pleased to hear that arranger keyboards are accepted professionally in Germany. I think you are right about the snob factor which seems to prevail among many musicians here in the States. I also think some prejudice might be borne out from earlier generation arrangers which were vastly inferior in both sound quality and auto accompaniment styles as well as their prior reputation as "K-Mart special" shopping mall toys. Arranger keyboards have certainly "come a long way" since then.

It's exciting to follow the latest developments in arranger keyboard technology so I'm anxious to find out what Solton will come out next with to top the X1 (I'm hoping it will include the implementation of more advanced (rootless) chord voicing recognition features, or better yet, a feature which will allow "us", the musician to program our own custom chord recognition tables). Solton!!!, are you listening?

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-29-2000).]

Scott, I think it's more ignorance than snobbishness. The musicians come into the music store and don't even go into the department where the Arrangers are kept. They think of them as toys, like the old Cascios were. Also a lot of the music store personnel do not understand the arrangers and treat them as lesser devices.
But, when a musician comes into the club where I play, they want to see what it is that's making the music. When they see that it is just one keyboard, there is no disrespect; rather, they marvel at how one person can make the music without the use of sequences or recordings.
People with "class", whether they are musicians or not, will give credit where it is due. Those without class are not worth worrying about in the first place.
Maybe, eventually, there will be enough Arranger exposure in the U.S. to reach the European acceptance level.
I began using Arrangers around 1987. I believe the first one was a Yamaha PSR 70! I used an external drum machine, and a DX7 midied to a Yamaha Piano Module. From there it was PSR6100, maybe a 6300?, Technics KN800, 1000, 2000, PSR 500, 510, 620, KN5000, Roland G800, PSR 8000, Solton X1, PSR 740, and now PSR 9000. That's roughly one per year!
The first keyboard where the external units could reasonably be eliminated was the KN2000. I still maintain it is one of the finest arranger keyboards ever produced.
DonM

Scottyee
I am new to this forum, all though I have been reading it for awhile, I played many a solo gig(USA NY)But haven't played out in about 7 yrs. When I did solo had Roland U-20 with RA-95 then got a RA95 also Korg M1. Did very well, played alot,had alot of fun. I would like to get back into it again. I have a Korg I30(about a year)I am looking at several others (1)G1000*only reason price $1195USD now!(2)Solton X1(3)Korg PA80*when it is released(4)General Music SK7608can't seem to find anyone locally who sells them Technics is only sold here in Piano/home instrument store and they are VERY overpriced.
What do you think. Looking for feedback

I think the prejudice is very real and strong in the U.S. All the pro shops in Silicon Valley have a lot of arrangers on display, but no salesman knows how to use them. It is strange to see a PSR-9000 languishing in the corner.

What is funny is the hyprocrisy of those who reject arranger keyboards, but desire drum machines, groove machines, arpeggiators, pattern sequencers, rhythm loop samples, beat munging, chord-recognizing Vocalists, etc. There are those that use mini-disc backing for live performances, but would not use an arranger.

We even see some of the same prejudice in this group, but it is reserved for Casios. Somehow low-end Yamahas and Rolands are "morally" superior to comparably priced Casios. I think Casio's MZ-2000 is a serious mid-range contender. Maybe Casio needs to introduce high-end synths with a new nameplate, like "Lexus" for Toyota, and "Infinity" for Nissan. I think that Scott is showing that musicians that let their prejudices blind them from new equipment are going to lose in the marketplace.

Clif,

Right you are about the general lack of arranger keyboard knowledge (and interest) by music sales staff here in the US, at least here in the Northern California Bay Area where we both live. It seems to me that it is "only" because Roland, Yamaha, and Korg produce successful selling mainstream contemporary synthesizers, that their arranger keyboard models are marginally accepted and sold (abeit relegated to a dark corner of the store).

Right you are about the hipocrasy regarding those guys who don't hesistate to purchase drum machines, groove boxes, sample loops, etc, yet reject arranger keyboards as a toy.

To further emphasize the "brand" image problem, I have actually had to cover up the brand logo on my Technics KN5000 (covering it with my own name/logo) because some clubs and clients think that unless your keyboard displays the designer plate names: Roland, Yamaha, or Korg on it, that it would not sufficiently impress the audience that the keyboard was a pro keyboard and would then reflect badly on the club. It's troubling to think that brand name indentification/image is more important (or at least of equal importance) than the music itself, even though a lesser known brand keyboard may in fact perform and sound better. Strange times.


Scott

DonM,
WOW, You have certainly owned quite an impressive collection of keyboards. The Technics KN2000 certainly was a landmark arranger keyboard and remains a classic. I particularly love Technics "ease of use navigation", especially for live performance. Don, could you possibly point out again the differences (pluses and minuses) between the PSR9000 and Technics arranger boards?

JCKeeys,
The listed prices for Technics keyboards at Piano/home organ stores are typically extremely inflated. Even if they were to sell the keyboard at half their list price, they would still be making a healthy profit. My current 'personal favorite' arranger keyboard still are the Technics KN6000 and KN5000 (both have great sounds, styles and are especially easy to operate). You can now pick up a brand new KN5000 for £999 (approx $1,468 USD). Current price for a brand new KN6000 is around £1,499 (approx. $2,200 USD). Seems like a lot of bang for the buck to me. I found these prices on the internet at:
http://www.whitleybayorgans.co.uk/pr01.htm

A US Technics dealer who has a repuation for great prices is Keppler's music in West Seneca, NY.
http://www.kepplermusic.com/


You might even be able to find cheaper prices elsewhere, I don't know. The price for these boards may be higher than the Roland G1000 but I really think you get a lot more for your money in both styles/sounds and most importantly, the Technics keyboard's ease of use. I found the Roland RA800 arranger much less intuitive than the KN5000 which is so well designed that you can be up and running (gigging) with it almost immediately. On the contrary, it took quite a while to master the Roland arranger.

Though I continue to love and perform with the KN5000 regularly, I am also looking for another arranger board to augment the KN5000. Yamaha PSR9000 pro, Solton X1, General Music WK8 SE, Korg PA80 or?

Can anyone out there tell me what the current street price for a brand new Solton X1 (both with and without a hard drive) is? Also, what are the current street prices for the GM WK8 and Yamaha PSR9000, and projected street prices of the upcoming Yamaha PSR9000 pro and Korg PA80?

Scott

So, I'll ask George Kaye--is there a significantly lower profit margin on Casios that relegate them to toy status? Cynics preach that profit drives consumer tastes. So I wonder . . . ?

About my past/current instrument setups: I started in '72 as a folk rock solo act armed with my old Gibson axe and Shure mic run through a metallic blue tuck 'n' rolled Kustom amp which I bought from the manufacturer a few miles away from my Kansas home of Ark City. That amp looked so cool. In '74, I duo-ed with a rock drummer who'd apprenticed with a touring swing band and could do it all. In '76, I added Crumar manual bass pedals and learned to play a fretboard with my hands and a keyboard with my feet. (Took three months in my basement to get the music into my shoes!) In '79, Bobby Wiley of Wichita KS got me into the NAMM in Chicago where I saw B.B. King demo-ing a "Lucille" in a booth with about 20 curious people milling about him; where I first heard of the upstart magazine, "Rolling Stone" which was enticing people to be photoed behind a carnival-esque mag cover with cut-outs for their faces; and where I bought the first model of the Italian arranger for guitarists called the "AutoOrchestra," a tempermental analog (duh! it's the '70s, Jim) pedal driven unit that I refused to bring to the stage because I didn't want to lose my drummer friend. Circumstances found me moving to Phoenix in '80 where I used two successive models of AutoOrchestras as a single act, then segued into Soltons (as the AO maker became Ketron). I've had three Soltons and, years ago, added a keyboard to the act to play either live or MIDI sequences I generate on Cakewalk (pre-Tune 1000 days). My hands are occupied with guitar playing and Solton button pushing and my feet are doing the left foot pedalboard, the right foot volume/4-switch pedal, and sundry effects/sustain pedals/buttons. When an occasional curious person looks behind the screen I have to block the distracting blur of my feet, I tell 'em it's just like driving a clutch car and they get the picture. A weird by-product of playing pedalboards for so many years is that, when I get scrambled and "lose" a song's chord structure ("What key am I in?!?!"), I just look at my feet and, 90% of the time, the ol' twinkle toes are right in the musical groove and I can get the guitar back online! I swear that the nerve ganglia of my lower extremeties are better musicians than my brain is!

Jim Henry

Scott,
I have never encountered any ridicule from other musicians about me playing an arranger keyboard in the last 20 years that I am giging Solo to thousands of people a week. As far as what other musicians think? Who cares? They wish they could do what I do night after night while they languish in their little weekend bar gigs due to their laziness when they could be playing bigger venues, just takes talent and motivation. I do appreciate and respect anyone that plays "LIVE" vs a DJ also. But anyone that disrespects a person playing solo with an arranger keyboard or guitar or any solo combo to make music and make people happy by themslves deserves Big Time Kudos my friend. I have people every night looking under me, over me, and thru me to see where all that music is coming from? Inside I laugh, then on breaks they start with the questions. Hi where do you get those nice tapes? Do you use CD's? Is that you singing? Hahahahahah yes Don M is right IGNORANCE prevails in the masses regarding Solo performers for sure. DJ's have decimated us Live performers, but I will never let them ruin my act as long as I can continue to play live I will always have the Upper Hand to throw in their faces. Anyone can play records or cds, sheeeeesh give me a break!!!!
Playing and arranger keyboard on a professional level and I mean Nightly 320 gigs a year is an ART FORM for sure. I play 11 instruments but solo keyboard is my bag.
Never be ashamed or let anyone intimidate you about playing arranger keyboards, you are doing something that 90% of the people cannot do and only Wish they could. Salesman? don't make me laugh. Plus you get paid, eat, and enjoy it to the Max! You are in control and have the ability to be the commander of your arranger keyboard Starship so to speak and can have creative control on every song, changing sounds at will to suit your audience and yourself. That is what makes it a pleasure to do. Yes 40 years playing my Accordian, Vox, Farfisa, assort keyboards, drum machines, Korg M1/ Ra90, i3, i30, Kn5000, Solton x1, are my weapons and with years of experience and talent I hit the Bulls Eye very night! Be Proud and Play SOLO as much as you can!! Most of all BE HAPPY DOING IT!!!!!


sorry for my rant, this topic just gets me nuts :>)


Donny

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-30-2000).]

Hi Donny

I do not see where the disagreeement is. Scott obviously does not think the prejudice is justified. I think I remember some of Scott's earlier posts where he used to play in a group or at least with other musicians and was concerned in that context about the image the arranger keyboards have. Anyway, there are going to be gigs that accept arrangers and those that will not. I image once the PSR9000Pro gets around, the latter group will shrink some more.

Scott

On the designer name thing, I would cover all my keyboard brand names--I mean the ones that ask for free advertising on their backs. If Roland, Yamaha, Korg, Kurzweil do not pay you to advertise for them, why do it? I find it distracting to see manufacturers names flashing in my face when I am really interested in the artist and the music.

I Have alot of Drunks and some sober ?? people looking over my shoulder at the screen of the X1 looking at at the words of the songs good fun but when the start to press a feww notes while I'm holding or hoppin on a C chord I get some weird chords -- thankfully I was sufficiently rested last night so enjoy the crack . They are all impressed but I take the original point. We in ireland Have a strong tradition of arrangers (dangerous word here - in some cases "justifying singing a lot of patterned songs re freedom). We however have quite alot of people saying "Sure That Thing will play itself and in reply I turn off the hold button to hold on to my ego best regard Pierce in Ireland.

Hello all,

Oneday, I was performing to group of friends and relatives. They were impressed to say the least. But few started to throw comments like this, "look at the wonderful technologies of how you can get a machine that plays itself without the need of knowing music."

At this point -thankfully I am an excellent acoustic piano player- I turned off the auto-accompaniment and gave them long solo complex piano performance where my both hands were flying left and right...that made those smart-mouth listeners humble a little. *s*

SK880user,

Good going. I'm sure you showed those smart mouthed listeners a thing or two with 'all' of your fingers flying

You hit on exactly my point! I really hate it when people assume that technology has replaced any need for musicianship skills.

What the technology does is provide keyboard musicians with 'more options' like the ability to make live spontaneous changes similar to playing with a live band: spontaneous drum fills, key modulation, ability to throw in chord substitutions, style changes, and adding an extra chorus if the audience is feeling pumped, etc. The technology does "NOT" replace the keyboard skills needed to create professional level music. Yes, one feature of the arranger keyboard allows players of limited keyboard skills (one finger chord) to produce acceptable music, but the higher level of musicianship you possess, the better (and more professional) you will sound. There really IS a difference!

The beauty of the arranger keyboard is that it gives keyboard players of "all" levels the opportunity to make music.

Make music and be happy,


Scott

California (SF Bay Area), USA

As these are the only places I gig now and then, you can also do what I do, as it is afterall amongst friends and family -)

Let the biggest mouth play themselves with the selve playing keyboard , and have some
fun!

Fred

Hi all,

I too demo'd my PSR740 for the wife's family at Christmas. The comment was "look you don't have to do anything it plays itself." At that point I invited my brother-in-law to go ahead and give it a try if it is so easy. He declined. Why is it that if you use a live bass player and drummer you are a musician but if you use an arranger it's karaoke? The real drummer and bass player are playing the parts for you just as the arranger is.

It is only the uninformed who make stupid comments like ones we've all heard.

Regards,

Tom

hey Tom,
I hear ya on the comments. BUT a stupider one is when people won't pay you what you want to play live saying " Why so Much? Your only One Man" but they will pay some "DJ" TWICE as much to play tapes and cd's all night at a Wedding blasting away like crazy!!! Then they complain about the affair and leave early due to the Volume, Type of music especially for the older people, etc. etc. etc. Oh Well, enjoy your ear plugs I tell em :>)

Donny

I am beginning to wonder if some of you good musicians aren't being too defensive. The comments that the keyboard seems to be playing itself may be less of a denigration of your skills than a hope that they (the unskilled) could make music with an arranger keyboard. This type of thinking should be encouraged, first of all, because it is true, and second, it might sell more arranger keyboards, which means more attention to the arranger market by keyboard manufacturers.

The fact is that someone with no musical ability or skills can play a good accompaniment on an arranger keyboard with less than an hour of training. (Just hit C, F, G, in that order, changing chords everytime that blinking light (tempo indicator) indicates a new measure. But once that is accomplished, the neophyte will soon realize how much more the skilled keyboardist can do with an arranger keyboard. So next time someone says your keyboard seems to play itself, encourage them to get their own. Just an opinion.

My thoughts on wedding DJ popularity:
Some audiences want to hear the songs 'exactly' as they remembered it on the original hit record/CD. No matter how much arranger keyboard work goes into emulating the original, we will "never sound exactly" as the original record did anyway (thank goodness!).

I don't like to be negative but the fact is, musical taste and appreciation (in the general population) has dropped dramatically over the years (no support for music programs in the schools, etc). A lot of the public take music for granted, thinking it's like turning on a radio. Easy on, easy off, turn it up, turn it down. I've spent years developing my craft and pour out all my "heart and soul" musically so if all they want is to hear the music exactly like the record,let them go with the DJ or turn on the radio (cheapest way to go). I think this is why most of my gig venues are geared to an older(over 40)audience because they grew up in an age before MTV.

Thanks for letting me vent, I feel much better now.Time to head off for my "appreciative" senior retirement community gig now and get home early too

Make music and be happy,



Scott

I absolutely agree with you.
This is exactly what I am doing,(After I had my fun!)
In fact some of them bought an arranger and even took lessons to read notes!
Hence I never did that.. I even cannot read notes!
I never use one finger chord's by the way, but make the variations of chords with five "fingers" ( I know one is a thumb)
There's no single finger mode I know off , that able's making all major/minor/6th/7th/9th chords etc....
As this was 33 years ago the way I teached myselve playing a piano (transposing chords from my guitar to the piano) the arrangers are the perfect solution for players like me.
I love them!
Fred
whooo this is very very offtopic....

I don't believe it's off topic at all. I think it's great to learn how musicians from all around the world have transformed (or progressed!) into one-man-bands (don't you hate that term!).
It's also good to learn that other members of our "brotherhood" are facing the same problems and reactions, at least in the U.S.
It takes a unique individual to do what we do, and pull it off successfully, and it's interesting to see how each of us handles it.
DonM

Hey y'all....... I just wanted to let you know that y'all (Arranger Keyboard Players) are the kind of musicians I enjoy listening to the most..... I have this wierd thing about people who use keyboards such as the DJX and comparable keyboards and don't know how to play the keys, I can't stand that. Y'all on the other hand, while you do use patterns and accompaniment, actually do play the keyboard....... like some of y'all said, it's ridiculous to pay somebody to sit there and play CD's all night, it's almost the same thing with Groove Boxes and the DJX, IMHO.

I may be looking into getting an arranger keyboard sometime soon...... after I get my drum machine (yeah I know....) is there anything out there that is basically the accompaniment section of the arranger keyboards in a module without the keys???? I already have a great set of keys with my XV-88. I'm just looking basically to provide some back-up to a one-man band I guess....... any suggestions.

------------------
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

hi keyboardfreak

I think the SOLTON X4 is just what you need for a great accompiament.
http://www.elitesound.com/solton_x4_by_ketron.htm

check it out..

good luck

donny

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-02-2000).]

Thanks Donny, that looks great...... but I think something a little less ummmmm...... complex, would be better for me right now. And I'm guessing that weighs in at about $1500-2000..... right?????

Does anybody make an arranger module???? That would be the best thing. I'm not saying this exact product..... but maybe something like the Boss JS5 Jamstation..... only better. Take the size of a normal sound module, the style part of that Solton keyboard, and the price range of around $1000....... am I dreaming?????

------------------
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

--------------------

I may be confused..... does that Solton have keys...... it said something about a keyboard in the specs..... it that just telling me what the external keyboard could control on the Solton. Anyone have a picture of this???

[This message has been edited by KeyboardFreak (edited 11-02-2000).]

Okay, now I'm sounding really stupid..... this is a module, I just looked at the dimensions and weight.... sorry Donny. Forget the last post everyone..... what is the price on the Solton X4?????? And how do you trigger the fill-ins and such????? With a midi pedalboard?? Sorry to sound so stupid, but I know almost nothing about arranger keyboards.

------------------
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Solton X4 module has the same controls as the X1. You can trigger things remotely, but also from its front panel. To find out more, go to the Solton webiste. Go the the Synthzone home page, click on Solton, and visit the Italian website (which has an English option).

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 11-02-2000).]

Hi Keyboardfreak,

I have the Korg i40m which is an arranger module. Got some great styles and will play all i series styles as well.

Got a not too bad vocal harmonizer as standard and can be connected to guitar or midi accordian. Sorry don't have a weblink but the korg is cheap compared to the X4.

They are going for about £600 here in the uk now (not sure what that is in merican money

Just another option
Tony

keyboardfreak--I use a pedal-driven Solton X4. If you're considering it, e-mail me with questions and I'll tell you what I think.

Jim Henry

When one of us gives a solo concert at Carnegie Hall using an arranger, then we will get full respect.

In the meantime, I counted my 740's function buttons and totaled well over 100 vs. only 61 black/white music keys. This clasifies my 740 more into a device than into an instrument.

I know that with my arranger, I'll never be called a music virtuoso, no matter how well I play it, and no matter how well I get to know the device.

We are in a different league.

mbl.

So has any of this Ideology changed after a few years regarding the perception of Arranger Kb Players out in the real world?

Have any of You played KORG OASYS?
Its KARMA technology is similiar to Arranger, it has 8 Karma scenes(wich are like 8 variations) and some of those scenes are drum fills, so Workstations (it would be great if Arrangers will be called Auto Music Workstations, than it would be more clear to the world...) may beat Arrangers. But Anyway keyboards(arrangers,workstations,pianos,synthesizers) will never get great popularity, beacause the world is hooked on GUITARS. Keyboards were once more popular during the 80s. So "vote" for keyboards(wether Arrangers or Workstations)

http://www.korg.com/gear/prod_info.asp?A_PROD_NO=OASYS

Great Video...


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-13-2006).]

The Oasys is a marvellous piece of kit, great sounds, the keys feel lovely... just way too expensive for my budget. The Karma is a great feature for coming up with instant ideas, it's a wonder Korg don't implement this feature onto the next arrangers coming out.

I'm just a jazz sax/vocals guy who plays
an arranger because i have some basic piano chops, can get a lot more work, and have more creative control without the bandleader blues. However, except
for a private party where I can command a good price...there is no way I can get a
bar or restuarant owner to pay me much more than if I was a member of a band...so I found an excellent bongo/hand
percussion cat to play with me. this works really well for several reasons:
I make the same amount or only slightly less than usual because the owner is
willing to pay more for 2 musicians. it takes up very little room compared to a drummer. The audience pays a lot more attention to a duo than a solo performer, it is a better draw, the percussionist is the focus for the rhythm audience-wise even though I still have the internal bass/drums going, it is visually exciting.
just a suggestion--it has worked out
better for me any other duo arrangement..
and is a lot of fun to play that way..
Miami Mo

Donny, I think savy consumers admire the people who use arrangers as a tool, and don't admire the ones who use arrangers as a crutch.

Me, too!

Russ

Russ I agree.....I look right thru the Tools Used & Only see the TALENT in a performer,... thats where the Magic lies...& believe me theres lots of Magic out there that demands mucho Respect !



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-14-2006).]

Miami Mo, I share your views on this. A duo act not only commands more attention, but legitimizes the act as a 'live band', with members interacting musicially with one another on stage, and which is one of the highlights of why people go to live band concerts. Unfortunately, this key ingredient is sorely missed in a solo arranger keyboard act.

I've utilized various different arranger keyboard duo setups: from adding a female vocalist, guitarist, to horn (sax/flute)player, as well as percussionist. These setups have all worked nicely, but I believe the best duo arranger keyboard act would be to add a female singer-percussionist. - Scott

Scott, I do the same as often as I can. Luckily, I have a pool of great players who do unbelievably well with minimal/no rehearsal.
I'm particularly fond of adding a horn or two
or a great guitar. I'm talking about "any tune...any key" folks.

Makes things interesting, challenging and fun, almost like the jam sessions for years gone by.


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 08-14-2006).]

Donny, I agree, but unfortunately, there's a lot of really crappy players too, at least in this area.


Russ

Russ of course there's always
good & bad out there...to the trained eye camouflaged talent will be detected or in reverse, exposed! Hang in there maybe someday Live music & bands will make a full turnaround and be back on top of the scene like it was years ago !

I have played in all situations from rock/pop bands, big bands, tribute, jazz, solo, and as I always explain to people who view arranger keyboards as somehow cheating? (I use a PSR3000 a lot for functions)and explain that its the only real solution for replacing a full band, so its just a tool to meet a specific need. I point out when questioned about the arranger and how it works is that I play exactly the same chords, same notes, same solo's ect as if I was playing in a completely live band and in that situation I would follow the bass player and the drummer and that is precisely what I do with the arranger but the need for the other musicians has been replaced by digital electronics, in actuall fact I find its actually more mentally taxing playing an arranger out than playing in a totally live band, you can hide behind other musicians and turn down if we don't know the song to well.! (how many times have we done that guy's)....with an arranger it play's what YOU make it play and boy it sounds bad if you slip outa line...

I recently visited an area where nobody new me and dropped into a local music shop, asked to play a used Tyros on the shop floor, after about 5 minutes the salesman came up and said 'I've never heard it played like that before' and noticed straight away that I was not your usual ham fisted dabbler, so no matter what instrument you sit down and play..if your musical ability is good then it should not really matter what type of instrument you prefer to gig with.

quote: originally posted by ScottYee
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I've utilized various different arranger keyboard duo setups: from adding a female vocalist, guitarist, to horn (sax/flute)player, as well as percussionist. These setups have all worked nicely, but I believe the best duo arranger keyboard act would be to add a female singer-percussionist.
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Scott, adding a second performer of any
kind has its benefits, as we discussed,
but in particular a good percussionist
serves to "hide" the fact that we are
using canned rhythms-and elevates the
rhythm..we keep the rock-solid time..the
percussionist gives the rhythm a creative feel and unsurpassed variety--something a vocalist or horn can't do...you are still essentially OMB +1. I do my own singing, and occasional horn solo..most female vocalist-percussionists will play
a cocktail drum and/or shaker and not much else, partly because they have to stand and sing. a flashy percussionist
accomplishes a lot more to make it feel like a real duo and not just an OMB+1..
Miami Mo

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Donny...I really don't anticipate bands to ever capture the market share they once had. You and I have lived throught the virtual dissapearance of horn players in lounge acts, then bass players, then drummers. I take that as reality. The challenge is to adapt and evolve, as you have said. That's our reality. I know you and I agree, we owe it to ourselves to do the best we can and never stop learning.

For me, that's what it's all about. I enjoy the business as much today as I did when I started at 10 years old in 1956, all changes considered.

Let's keep on "pickin and grinnin".

Regards,

Russ

Russ ....
I hear ya, I agree totally! You gotta find your niche in the ever expanding world of musical performance & use all your experience & talent to maintain a personal gratification for your Audiences & for Yourself.

Stay well

Donny

One of the under-appreciated advantages of arrangers, that few salesmen EVER demonstrate, is that they are VERY capable all-around, general purpose keyboards, not just arrangers.

Usually, the first thing a salesman will start doing is use the arranger section, and unless the buyer is of an older generation, or the salesman is VERY careful to not play any ballroom styles, OFF go the lights, and it's 'show me the Motif, Triton, etc..'

If only they would demonstrate the fact that, without starting loops up or anything else automatic, here's a keyboard that sounds just as good as any workstation, is usually FAR easier to call voices up to splits and layers, and usually has a FAR better selection of 'meat and potato' sounds than most workstations. Add to that a good set of sliders to control everything, and it's a no-brainer for the gigging musician.

I've been using Roland arrangers almost exclusively for live gigging for the last 10-12 years or so (one stint on Bourbon St. for a year with a K2500, but that was a house gig, and the owner wanted my K2500!) and currently am using a G70.

The combination of excellent action (best in the biz IMHO), excellent grand piano (ditto), excellent Hammond emulation (ditto [for arranger]), excellent choice of other sounds (OK, some nod goes to Tyros2, which may have some better sounds, some worse!) and unparalleled ease of mixing and calling up the sounds and effects make it (once again, IMHO) the BEST gigging keyboard on the planet! I kid you not........ I've played ALL the top workstations, and I wouldn't dare go out on a call to a strange band or engagement with any of them!

If you've got time to set them up in advance, OK, but if you've got to dive in with no preparation, they are hell! I have done many gigs on my G70 where I had no idea what they were going to play until they called the tune, and it took only a few seconds to dial in the right sounds and volumes and away we go!. Literally one User Program with a split (usually at Middle C, but you can alter it quickly) and just call the sounds up on the fly......... can't do THAT with my K2500!

Afterwards, they always come up and go 'how did you know which sounds you were going to use in advance?' and I just smile.........

Arranger's only weakness in the music stores comes from something I've been complaining about for a long time...... way too few modern hiphop and rap and pop styles with a contemporary US feel. Motifs and Tritons fly off the shelves courtesy of a few combi patches that include basic hiphop loops and arpeggiations, something that is child's play for most arrangers, but too often either there are way too few modern, hiphop style sounds, or even when there are, there are way too few styles that sound as contemporary as the loops in the Motifs, etc..

In the US, hiphop, rap and techno based styles rule. The one way to GUARANTEE it won't sell well in MI stores is to have a button labeled 'Ballroom' or 'Latin Swing'..... Given how easy it is to completely customize most top of the line arrangers, I think they would sell better if there were FEWER labels on the ROM styles, and then all the style buttons just on a number basis. That way, the display can show the names of the styles, NOT have them silk-screened to the front panel.

NOW, a store who's clientele tend to be young, urban players can load in a Program and Style set that is ALL modern styles, with names like 'Snoop Dog 1' and 'Kanye 3', etc.. and there is no stigma in the eyes of the buyer from seeing 'Pasadoble 3' or 'Glen Miller 2'. If an old couple walk in the store and want to try out the SAME arranger, the salesman simply hits 'Load Oldies Global' and voila! it's now a ballroom only machine, and the old geezer doesn't get his Depends in a wad when he accidentally hits 'Snoop Dog 1'!!

Now THAT might finally get the arranger some respect......!

Hi Mo: Note that I actually INCLUDED a "percussionist" in my #1 recommendation, just as you did. Having the added ability for the percussionist to SING, plus on stage female attractiveness certainly adds to the mix.

You are then essentially OMB + 3 in one.

Scott

Ahhh ok, I get your point here. Perhaps depends on 'what kind' of flash (music or skin) your audiences appreciate most.

Scott